斯蒂芬•布吕克曼：海绵城市的综合水环境设计

斯蒂芬·布吕克曼（Stefan Brückmann）：

　　斯蒂芬·布吕克曼，德国戴水道设计城市水文工程部全球技术总监。拥有20年的专业水文经验，斯蒂芬不断加深他在流域、河流和城市地区生态水系统管理方面的专业知识，将其纳入基础设施建设和城市发展之中。代表项目有：丹麦哥本哈根城市防洪保护实施规划，德国奥斯特菲尔登沙恩豪瑟公园，德国柏林波茨坦广场，德国新乌尔姆海纳-梅茨格广场，德国辛德芬根迈巴赫卓越中心，奥地利林茨太阳城，芬兰坦佩雷沃尔斯中央公园，阿联酋阿布扎比扎耶德国家博物馆，美国纽约皇后区植物园，美国俄勒冈州波特兰坦纳斯普林斯公园，中国天津里唐文化公园，中国天津文化中心，中国天津张家窝新城，中国湖南株洲城市流域总体规划，台湾台北电信公园。新加坡碧山宏茂桥公园，新加坡JTC清洁技术中心。
　　最新奖项有：
　　天津文化中心　
　　2013年亚洲国际房地产奖铜奖最佳城市再生项目类　　
　　2013年标志奖城市概念规划类伐夫赫芬生态居住区　
　　2013年德国可持续发展奖城镇类裕廊清洁技术产业园　
　　2013年新加坡景观设计师学会金奖碧山宏茂桥公园　　
　　2013年新加坡景观行业协会优质银奖

戴水道的设计理念

景观中国：请为我们介绍一下戴水道在中国的发展情况，有哪些水环境治理项目正在进行中？

布吕克曼：戴水道公司在2001年的时候在中国开展工作，在上海参加了我们的第一个竞赛项目。他们的开发商去过德国考察，对德国的建筑设计很感兴趣。后来我们和德国的一家建筑公司一起到中国参加一个展会，认识了我们第一个重要的甲方，天津张家窝社会山项目的甲方，从2006年开始合作张家窝的项目。这就是我们在中国的第一个海绵城市项目。

天津张家窝

　　接下来，我们又参加了一些竞赛。第二个竞赛是天津文化公园项目的竞赛，我们赢得了竞赛，接到天津文化中心的委托来完成这个设计。这个项目是和德国莱茵之华集团合作完成的，我们负责其中的景观部分和生态水系统设计。我们将海绵城市的理念落实到项目中，其中有一个特别大的湖体是这个项目的难点，我们使周边所有雨水都通过海绵系统收集到湖里，既通过有效的生态管理补给了湖水量，也使湖体也经过比较有效的自然净化手段保持较好的水质。通过这个项目，天津逐渐成为了我们一个稳定的客户。另外一个是我们在天津空港完成的国际商务园项目，这是和德国GMP建筑公司合作的。他们做了一个圆形街区的规划，也是以一个人工湖为核心,周边被商务区环绕，我们也非常巧妙的做出了一个完整的海绵管理系统。后来，又在北京、广州、重庆、杭州陆陆续续开展了类似的海绵城市项目。比如说，正在北京进行的国瑞经典住宅项目，这是一个非常高端的生态小区项目，是和国际知名建筑事务所诺曼福斯特合作的，目标是得到美国绿色建筑认证的最高奖项。广州的五月花项目，也是和诺曼福斯特进行合作。在重庆，我们做了双塔项目，围绕着在重庆乃至是在中国最高的双塔——双子星大厦，在周边进行了生态水系和生态公园项目。在杭州，我们的业主是华为，通过景观和生态的结合为它规划了一个景色优美的园区，并在园区里成功地实施了海绵城市系统。

天津文化公园

天津空港商务园

北京国瑞金鼎

重庆双子大厦

　　我认为最重要的是我们的生态河道项目。比如在张家窝的项目里，我们将居住区的发展融入到海绵城市系统中去。这个居住区内所覆盖的河流本不属于开发商的建设范围，而我们非常成功的帮助城市污水河道进行了恢复，使它最后融入到周围的社区当中，成为一个清水宜居的区域。另一个是株洲的项目，我们完成了一个"一江四港"水系的规划，在这个大的规划框架中，我们又在它的上游完成了株洲与峰湖生态体育公园的规划。在这个生态体育公园里，我们也运用了海绵城市的理念，通过水系的串通、水系生态的恢复做成了一个针对周边整个水文系统的海绵体，以减轻洪涝倾泻，节约水资源。在株洲的一个新城中，我们还完成了对整个城市海绵体系的构建，提出了相应的方针，这是在城市尺度上非常完整的案例。

天津张家窝居住区

　　我们参加了很多竞标，在这项目中始终把生态水文和海绵城市的工作相结合，比如南昌赣江的"一江两岸"项目、深圳的"宝安活水新城规划"和"深圳北站周边地区的规划"、南京的"长江冰水风光带"的规划。

南昌赣江的“一江两岸”

深圳的“宝安活水新城规划”

深圳北站周边地区的规划

　　因此，我们有两个着眼点：一个是海绵城市的设计，一个是生态河道的设计。

LAC：Could you introduce the development of Atelier Dreiseitl in China ? What projects about water environment al management are ongoing?

Brückmann：Atelier Dreseitl started to work in China in 2001 when we were at our first project for competition in Shanghai. The developer actually has taken exploration in Germany, so they were interested in the Germany architecture. Then we came with a Germany architecture company to attend an exhibition in Beijing where we met our first client - Zhangjiawo, Society Hill in Tianjin. This is our first sponge city construction in China in 2006.
　　Then several competitions were followed. One of the competitions was for the culture park in TCC in Tianjin with our partner RhineScheme and we won the competition. In this project, we actually designed this big lake in TCC in Tianjin. That was the second competition, the realization competition. We have been part of this project and we have done the landscape architecture and water management design. We implemented sponge city concept to the project, which means the whole entire set collected storm water, treat it and release to the central lake. Through this project, Tianjin has become more and more stable partner for us as a client. The other project is the Tianjin airport GC Park, and we did it with GMP, the architects of which also did the architecture of Opera in the TCC side. The design of the project is a round lake in the middle, surrounded by commercial areas. And the landscape design was integrated with water management. These are the big projects in Tianjin. There are some other projects and competitions together with Foster Architects, such as Guorui in Beijing, May Flower in Guangzhou, the new development with Twin Tower in Chongqing and the new commercial center of Huawei in Hangzhou together with Henn Architects.
　　Then the very important I think is our river projects, like the project in Zhangjiawo. Because the one part was the residential area developed with sponge city systems. The residential area covers a river, which was not owned by the developer, but we did the river restoration to reflect how it worked and how to clean the water. We did a very good project in Zhuzhou, Changsha, called 'one river, four streams'. We provided the masterplan and implemented the already started area, the new area and new golf course area, river restoration and the guideline for urbanization with integrated water management.
　　Then there are a lot of competitions in Nanchang, Xian, Nanjing and Shenzhen. All these projects are related with water management. So our goal is we carry on and focus on sponge city projects and river restoration projects.

景观中国：戴水道在全球领域开展设计工作，在德国、新加坡、中东、中国这些不同的地域文化下，设计工作有哪些差异和共通点？

布吕克曼：我从共同点开始说起，这样更容易理解。不同的甲方对项目的理解和希望是类似的，都想要追求更健康、更好的生活环境，这些项目也是为了实现城市化、推进城市发展而建设的。由于戴水道长久的发展历史和经验，我们可以提供从实践项目中得来的经验，这是甲方最需要，他们需要设计师清楚地知道，到底有什么是可以从理论模型中付诸于实践的。
我认为每个设计项目都与当地的文化相关。对于我们公司来说，开始时就要学习研究当地文化的不同点。但是我们终归都是生活在同一个地球上的人类，有着共同的艺术、相似的需求和愿景。对这一点的理解帮助我们为甲方和人们提供依据和想法，引导他们应该怎样去进行设计，如何将水文系统融入到项目当中。
　　对于不同点来说，主要是气候、地形、人口聚集度、水文系统、以及城市设计和规划体系的不同。在德国，我们不会拥有中国或亚洲这么多的人口。而水资源的可利用性和甲方间的差异，也是去理解不同地区文化和城市设计情况的重要之处。我们要知道所有这些不同点，以及人们在当地的历史下对于事情如何做出反应，这就需要我们去学习如何用现代化的设计手法把不同的条件融入到项目中去。
　　列举几个例子：在中东，我们会讨论为什么在水资源不足的情况下还要建设水景。因为在中东和沙漠，只有在有水的地方才会有生命，这是我们希望强调的一点。所以在中东，人们会聚集在能接触到水的区域里。因此我们建造了一个漂亮的区域，即使很难得到水也要设计水景。另一方面在德国，水资源非常丰富，然而在不容易建造水体环境的区域，人们就会遗忘水。因此我们需要在能建造水体环境的区域，尽量让水体可见，具有功能性又美观。
　　差异与文化和人们的经历相关。在农村地区，我们会发现由于当地教育的落后，人们不知道怎样利用废水和资源。在德国，保护水资源的责任从个人开始，因为我们有水供应和废水管理的集中系统。在中国和亚洲国家城市化程度高的区域，也有和我们一样的法规，政府机构会负责部分水处理工作。但我们认为这只是一种手段，而不是处理水的最佳方式，在未来人们应该对水保有更大的责任感，与水环境的关系更加亲密。当我们的项目为人们提供了清洁的河水时，就可以看到人与水的关系已经开始转变，他们完全改变态度并开始注意保护水资源了。

LAC：Atelier Dreiseitl has worked on design projects all over the world, such as Germany, Singapore, Middle East and China, could you tell us the differences and similarities of design works under such different regional cultures?

Brückmann： I start with the similarities, because it is much easier to understand. The similarities of all these projects are the clients wish they could receive better and healthier urban environment in the projects. Of course the projects are constructed for urban development and urbanization. Because of the long history and experience Atelier Dreiseitl has, we could provide the realized projects' experiences from realization. This is what our clients really need, and they need designers and planners who have the clear picture of what can be done from the theoretical modeling designs.
　　I think the design work in every place is always connected to the local culture. For us, it is a work from the beginning to study and learn what kind of differences are there in this culture. But in the end, we are all human beings living on the same planet, having the same art, similar needs and wishes. This helps us to give guidelines and visions to the clients and to the people that how to do the design and how to integrate water functions into the projects. The major differences are that the climates, topography, the amount of people are different. In Germany, we have no such a big population like China or other Asia countries. The availability of water and the clients' difference are important to understand the culture and urban design in each land in the country. We have to get to know all these differences and to know how people react in that history. This is what we have to learn that how to use modern design language to translate it.
　　I give some examples. In the Middle East, we have to discuss why they design water feature even if there is enough water. We always try to bring to the point that only with water, it is possible for people to start life in the Middle East and in the desert. People stay in the area where there is natural oasis or it is accessible to water easily. We think to translate it in modern urban design that if we create a nice place, you have to display and show water even if it is hard to get water. On the other hand, we have a plenty of water in Germany, we think that even there it is not easy to implement water system in urban environment, people forget about water. Even there water is easy to show, sometimes it tries to make water visible and keep it visible with functional systems and aesthetic design systems.
　　Differences are related to the culture and to the experiences of people. So when we go here into landscape or rural areas, then I see that because of lack of education, people do not know what to do with the waste water and how to treat our nature resources. In Germany, responsibility has been taken from people, because we have centralized systems for water supply and waste water management. In modern urban area of China and Asia countries, we have the same principle and part of the responsibility has been taken by public authorities to treat water and handle water in an urban water circle. We think that it is not a good way to deal with water. We think that in the future people should get more responsibility and freely connect to water in environment. We can see in our projects how it works when it provides clear rivers and clear water features. People completely change their mind and start to protect water resources.

景观中国：戴水道加盟Ramboll集团后，如何利用互补优势进一步推动可持续城市发展？在水和环境部门拓展了哪些业务？

布吕克曼： 我们慢慢地对Ramboll集团加深理解，就像夫妻一样，结婚之后会慢慢的了解自己的伴侣。我们也花了时间建立了良好的人际关系，并看到我们现在所拥有的可能性和机会。我认为加入后的一个巨大优势，是我们现在有能力做更大的项目了，尤其是像在中国地区。Ramboll 集团能够为我们提供更多各种类型的服务，现在我们就能对河段、废水处理、雨水管理和景观设计上提供全面的基础设施规划。未来，我们将会设置城市设计部门，从而真正提供对全球日益增长城市的进行全方面设计。另外，我们现在也在参与一些城市设计、综合雨洪管理、河道设计以及景观设计项目的竞标，也希望在不久的将来，我们能真正落实整个的城市发展规划项目。

LAC：After Atelier Dreiseitl joining Ramboll Group, how to facilitate sustainable city development further with complementary advantages? What other businesses has Atelier Dreiseitl developed in related water environmental department?

Brückmann： I think we slowly get to understand Ramboll Group. Like when you get married, after the marriage, you get to know you partner much better. It takes time to lead people to get personal relationship, to see what kind of possibilities and opportunities we have now. We think the big advantage is now, especially for China(there are always much bigger projects in China), we could deal with the big projects. Ramboll Group can provide more services and sorts of services, so now we can provide the whole infrastructure program for reaches, waste water management, storm water and landscape design. In the future, we will have urban design group. So we could really provide the whole range of growing global cities. Meanwhile we are doing a lot of competitions for urban planning, integrated storm management, river design, and landscape design. We think in the near future, we can provide the whole program for the urban development.

景观中国：德国波茨坦广场以及近期的哥本哈根项目都完成了防水排涝的规划，成功的将公共绿地与排水系统结合在一起，在项目中您面临了哪些挑战？

布吕克曼： 波茨坦广场的难点有两方面。第一方面是之前德国刚刚实施颁布了一部分法令，它规定在城市区域新开发的地方，产生的暴雨径流需要进行源头管理，通过进化储存慢慢地释放到周边的河道中去。第二个是和我们合作的建筑师Renzo Piano，他在规划的体系当中，把城市水体看成了一个非常重要的空间元素，这就对水质提出了非常高的要求。但最后我们把设计的要求和水系统功能的要求结合了起来，成功地完成了项目。

德国波茨坦广场　　

　　哥本哈根项目也是非常有挑战性的，因为它是在已建成的城市中心上进行设计。哥本哈根在2011年的时候遭受了一次很大的暴雨冲击，遭遇了极大的损害。当时政府已经提出一个关于气候适应性的政策，由于当时遭受暴雨，人们又对这个法案重新进行了商讨，去制定一个新的规划。我们和ramboll集团一起参加了当时的规划竞赛，最后在竞赛中胜出。这个项目的挑战就是怎样实施基础设施系统和防洪系统规划，以及怎样提升公共空间的水质。

LAC：Potsdamer platz and the recent Copenhagen project in Germany have realized the program of water resistance and storm drainage, combining the public green areas with drainage system , what challenges do you have in the projects?

Brückmann： For the Potsdamer Plaza, the challenge was that the plaza or the whole area was ordered that the storm water should be released to the sewer system. Storm water should be captured and treated onside and slowly released to the river. And at the same time, the idea of the urban design from Renzo Piano was he designed the device center with a big lake, and he wanted to have this urban element as usual that should have very clean water. There are different topics in the project, the design topics but also functional storm management topics. The challenges were actually combined in this project.
　　The Copenhagen project, this was very challenging, because we have been working on existing structures. The entire city of Copenhagen was hit by a very strong flood, and suffered heavy damage. The policy of Copenhagen climate plan has been released already, but they had to step back and to see what they needed. We have been part of the competition to provide solutions together with Ramboll. We won this competition for one part of the city. The challenges were that how to implement system infrastructure, flood management system, and how to combine the flood management with improvement of quality of urban spaces and public spaces.

如何理解海绵城市

景观中国：当前雨洪管理和海绵城市已成为世界性议题，您怎样理解海绵城市建设的全球化背景？

布吕克曼：这是一个很好的问题，因为我们所有人都面临着气候变化的问题。我们认为这很有可能促进全球合作，与那些有雨洪管理、整合规划经验的国家进行交流，合作解决问题。海绵城市在美国和德国这样的国家已经有大约20年或是30年的发展历程。亚洲国家正快速发展，这就成为了一个很好的平台，让我们在全球的背景下共同解决雨洪管理的问题，并把水文设计与景观设计融合起来。

LAC：Recently storm management and sponge city have become worldwide issues, how do you understand the globalization background of sponge city construction?

Brückmann： I think this is a very good question, because we are all hit by global climate change. We think that it is a very good possibility to globally work together to exchange experiences with some countries who work with storm management, integrated planning. Sponge City issues in other countries have started for 20 or 30 years, such as Germany and USA. Because of the strong development of Asia countries, this becomes a very good platform and under this globalization context, we can work together in this field of storm management and integrate the design into urban landscape architecture.

景观中国：您认为海绵城市建设的终极目标是什么？城市居民能够如何从中受益？

布吕克曼：当着手建造或是规划城市区域时，我们面对的是世界各地的场所，但它们有相同的问题，其中有些问题可能更依靠工程师来解决，所以海绵城市不是一个新问题。事实上，这个问题由来已久，在城市化开始的时候就存在。
海绵城市的目标与创建更加安全、更好的城市生活目标相一致。它的大背景是节约和保护水资源。海绵城市聚焦于水资源，其目标是为下水道系统减少雨水径流、消减洪峰、提升水质。最后，我们认为海绵城市是实现基础设施与城市环境可持续发展的基石。通过海绵，我们把城市中产生的水通过一种自然的方式管理起来，让自然的水再循环到自然中去。

LAC：What do you think the ultimate goal of sponge city construction? And how could citizens benefit from it?

Brückmann： When you start to construct or to plan urban area, we face every place worldwide, the same problem issues, one of these sorts of engineers, so this is not a new invention or a new problem. Actually it is a problem from the beginning when urbanization started.
　　The goal of sponge city is related to the goal to create safer and better life in the city. And the background is that we have to save and protect our resources. Sponge city is focusing on water resources and the goal of sponge city is to reduce runoff and improve water quality in rivers and to minimize pollution by overflow from sewer system. Finally we think and believe sponge city is the stepstone to develop highly sustainable system in our infrastructure and in our urban environment. So the picture of sponge is a natural way how water is received, treated and released to nature.

景观中国：水作为海绵城市建设中最重要的一个因素，您认为设计师应当如何来理解水？在管理水的问题上应当充当怎样的角色？

布吕克曼：我认为设计师已经了解到水的美学价值，人们具有亲水性，喜欢临水锻炼，我们认为这是功能性水系统结合的结果。但是没有人对与水相关的基础设施进行这样的设计，而只是设计水景，打造漂亮城市景观。而海绵城市的一个重要转变，就是将传统的地下基础设施变为可见的地上元素，目前很多的地方已经实现了这种设计。我们在乡村中看到的传统的水管理设施中，往往会发现一些外露的排水系统。设计师的任务就是使它们美观，去了解怎样既完成基础设施建造的需求，又能将它们良好地结合到城市景观中去。
　　我是土木工程师，因此更多从工程的角度理解很多建筑物。而我发现设计师会从一些新的视角来思考水系统，他们先对设计提出一个美好的愿景来引导整个项目，然后再进行实施建造。所以我认为设计师更多的是一个引导者角色，同时也要有能够与艺术、工程等其他学科相结合的能力，从而完成绿色基础设施和景观相融合设计。

LAC：As water is the most important factor in sponge city construction, how do you think the designers understand water? What role do they act in water management?

Brückmann： I think that designers already know that water is a very esthetic element. That people like to be on water and exercise to water. We think that must be the combination of functional water systems. Infrastructures nobody does. And also the design of landscapes, urbanscapes where we integrate water as water feature for nice design. They await how to do it and the feature of sponge city can lift up the underground infrastructure to visible element. And many places have already realized that. In traditional water management, you can see open drainage systems when you go to the village. To make it nice, this is the task of designers and the understanding of designers how it works, what it is needed for the infrastructure, how we can combine it in a nice way for nice landscape or urbanscape.
　　Because I am a civil engineer, I know more constructions more from part of engineering set. What I learn is that designers are open to think the system from a new perspective. The following structures and planning should start after the vision design ideas of designers. So I think the role of designers for water management should be more leading role, and they have the ability to integrate all other issues from art, engineering to some engineering.

景观中国：和传统模式相比，戴水道公司对此有怎样的设计理念？您认为海绵城市建设的关键之处和难点在哪几方面？

布吕克曼：我们认为传统模式是指在过往的城市化过程中，人们规划水系统的方式往往着眼于城市的功能、技术和经济因素，城市规划师根据需求制定原则，所有与水相关的基础设施都要在此原则下进行设计。而戴水道所理解的新模式和传统模式不同，我们认为没有一个统一的原则和分层体系，而是将城市规划、水系统和社会文化功能进行整合设计，把多种元素聚集在一起，达到可持续发展的目标和效益。
我认为海绵城市建设的难点和关键有两个。第一点是教育，怎样让从事规划设计的人员和政府人员更好的认识海绵城市的关键点、建设目标以及建造原因，这恐怕是现在很多地区尚未解决问题。第二个是技术层面，怎样在已建区域和新建区域中实施海绵城市体系。

LAC：Compare with traditional models, what design concept does Atelier Dreiseitl have? What do you think the key point and difficulties in sponge city construction?

Brückmann： Traditional model is completely connected to functional design，technical design and economic design. And the optimization of this water system and the needs come from urban planners, which means the urban planners set the rules and all the water infrastructures have to be followed. This is how we understand traditional models. And Atelier Dreseitl makes it different. We think that there is not a rule and hierarchy, and we think that we have to be done at the same time. So we have to start with the vision for urban planning together with the vision for water planning for water resource management, and also for the social cultural function and design. So these different factors come together and then we can create sustainable new development.
　　For the key points and difficulties of sponge city construction, I think the first one is education. So you need to educate people, planners and government officials what is needed to get to the point of the sponge city, what is the goal of the sponge city and why we need sponge city. This is very important. Secondly, it is also very important to know what is the possible in existing structures and what is the possible in the new structures to implement sponge city structures.

海绵城市的政策与实现

景观中国：海绵城市建设往往涉及诸多学科和部门，您认为应如何来理解或实现海绵城市的多方合作？

布吕克曼：这是一个非常有难度的问题，因为它直接涉及到了当地文化。每个项目都具有特殊性，我们的设计也意味着是去规划创建一种文化，需要考虑它的过去与将来。海绵城市建设是多学科参与的工作，从规划、建造到最终完成，都不仅仅是设计师的任务。我们要考虑许多不同团体的声音，因为每一方都会对项目有不同的认识和理解。我们首先需要把各方聚集在一起并对他们进行教育，这样我们才能从同一起点出发，进而达到新的高度。每个人都可能对解决方案拥有不同理解，因此需要通过交流切磋达成共识，找到一个折中的方法，为这个特定区域设计出最好的方案。

LAC：Sponge city construction involves many disciplines and departments, how do you understand the multi-cooperation of sponge city construction? How to realize it?

Brückmann： I think this is the most difficult topic, because this directly relates with the culture of the location which means planning culture, construction culture and what have been made in the past and what to be made in the future. Sponge city construction you mentioned is a multi-disciplinary task, so it is not only designers' task-we do it, we plan it and we make it. We have to consider a lot of different parties. We, at first, have to bring all these different parties together to teach them, so that we could start from the same point and also get the new point. I mean everybody can have their own understanding and opinion about solutions. They must exchange their ideas and find a compromise to create the best solution for the specific location.

景观中国：德国是最早对城市雨水采用政府管制制度的国家，请问德国海绵城市政策和技术对中国有哪些借鉴之处？

布吕克曼：德国确实已经实施了很多成功的海绵城市项目，但其中也有很多不足，尤其是实施层面，很少有大尺度大规模的项目，但是有很多示范性案例。法律虽然要求建设更多的海绵城市项目以解决城市问题，但是德国很多城市已有的设施结构体系，让海绵城市的理念很难在各个地方融入城市生活和结构。
　　所以，中国可以学到的一点是，不能把一个国家的技术单纯的从一个国家复制到另一个国家，从一个城市复制到另一个城市。每个地方都有不同的规范，决策者也不一样，要结合当地的需求进行设计，和每个地方的领导者深入沟通并引导他们做出正确的决策。德国设计师和专家可以到中国来进行演讲和交流，或许也可部分地指导项目，带给大家一些不同区域的优秀示范性项目，还可以进行实地考察。
　　总之，信息共享是一个很好也很重要的方式，比如贵网站就可以传播一些关于海绵城市的信息，像你们举办的活动、制作的海绵城市专题等都起到了教育作用。而大学也可以在这方面培养学生，帮助学生创建开放性的设计理念，从项目案例中学习和吸收优良经验。我认为中国和德国的政策不同。在德国，国家颁布规范化的法文法规，地方政府进行具体的实施。而在中国，政策的决定和推行主要靠中央政府。
　　所以我认为海绵城市更适合这种方式来推行，因为它不是一个城市或地区的单独决定，而是在共同的目标下，整个社会朝同一方向共同努力才有可能完成。在这一点上，我认为德国应向亚洲国家如中国和新加坡学习，他们强有力的政策能够推动项目稳步的推进，从而达到一个明确的目标。

LAC：Germany is the earliest country to adopt government controlling for urban water, what aspects do you think China could learn from German sponge city policies and technologies?

Brückmann： Yes. Germany has quite a lot of experiences but there are still a few of unclearness in Germany about implementation especially when you think about to bring it in a big area, so we did a lot of pilot projects. And the laws are demanding to do more sponge city solutions. But the existing structures are hard to integrate sponge city ideas into all Germany urban life and structure.
　　This is the first aspect China could learn that it is impossible just to copy it from one country to another, from one city to another. Because every city has its own rules and the decision driver in every city is different, we have to go to every town and talk to the leadership and lead them to do the right decision about the solution of sponge city construction. What Germany can help is to go to China, give talks and lead part of the projects. Maybe we can showcase the pilot projects distributed in different areas or regions. People could go there to have a look.
　　I mean publishing information share is a very good way. I think your website could give information to other people, and the universities have the chance to train students, and students could propose open-minded design ideas, and learn something from the brilliant projects. I also want to share some experiences. The policy in Germany and China is different. In Germany, there is a lot of responsibility in city scale, and the state gives laws and guidelines, but the implementation and decision are made by city government. I guess, in China, it is more centralized, and the big decisions are made from the top leadership.
　　Maybe you are more advanced in this field, because I think environmental laws and implementation are the responsibility of the state or the whole social community. It is not the decision only made by one city, and it should be something that everybody should have the responsibility and be on the one direction to make it possible. I think Germany could learn from Asia, not just China but also Singapore, that the very strong policy pushes the project a big move to change structures and to give a key direction.

景观中国：您在新加坡碧山宏茂桥公园的项目中是怎样打破传统的水务领域的规划理念？在项目过程中，如何把海绵城市建设的功能性与景观设计的艺术性作结合？这个项目对中国河道改造和治理有什么指导意义？

布吕克曼： 我们有很多新加坡项目的经验。在碧山公园项目刚开始的时候，我们和CH2MHILL一起为项目所在地的中央水域进行了主体规划和概念理论设计。但最重要的一点是，在项目开始之前，我们组织了多次工作研讨会，和新加坡的水利部门、公园管理部门和交通设计部门一起来商讨设计方案，这是我们打破传统设计理念的重要方法。这也再一次和教育相关，我们成立工作室之后，就教导有不同观念的人、不同职责的部门来达成共识，虽然这是一个非常艰苦的、需要不断努力的过程。在设计方面，我们的出发点是打造一个完全自然的公园，而真正的自然其实是无法分割的，任何子系统都是无缝衔接的。传统设计概念是将自然分隔开进行设计，各部门各司其职。而在这个项目中，我们将自然整合在一起，这对于各个部门配合的要求就更加复杂。最后的设计作品也是非常成功的，建成以后，大家也很高兴看到这样一个颇具自然的风貌和价值的景观。我们也意识到，虽然刚开始各部门会有很多分歧和对合作的抗拒，最后证明我们这种打破传统理念的合作新模式是有说服力的。  

 

新加坡碧山宏茂桥公园

　　碧山公园的特色在于，它是一个大型水域的一部分，还有很多支流，只不过后来随着城市建设被逐渐覆盖而成为暗渠，最后也演化成水泥护岸的人工渠道。在这个项目中，怎样能够在现代城市肌理中建造更加自然的河道，构建自然的排水设施，是设计师和建筑师的重要任务。 

新加坡碧山宏茂桥公园　　

　　在碧山公园中，海绵城市的功能性或许不能被直接看到，而当暴雨来临时它的蓄水功能就会体现出来。因为传统的海绵城市通常是采取分散式的水处理模式。但碧山公园是在城市流域中心的汇水区。在雨季，周边的雨水会汇到河道里，跟以往相比，这个项目中我们提供更大尺度的蓄洪储水空间，满足了防洪的功能。在项目进行之前，人们不容易接触到水，现在我们减少了水流速度，让人们能够与水进行亲密接触。在旱季，河流的一大部分变成了小流量的连续溪流，成为一种结合了公园功能的水文景观，人们可以在低水位的时候亲近水源，在高水位的时候将它作为防洪的空间。公园的安全系统是最重要的，我们就此设计了预警系统，及时提示人们离开公园。我们已经感到洪水来的没有以前那么快了，这个公园可以减缓雨洪速度，让它像排水系统一样发挥功效。

　　我认为这个项目是一个很好的作品，它的成功经验表明，在城市的环境里建造越来越多的自然河道是可行的，能够给城市和人们带来更好的生活，让河流切实可用。

LAC：How do you break the traditional design concept of water sector in the Kallang River Bishan Park in Singapore? In the process of this project, how to combine the functionality of sponge city construction with the artistry of landscape architecture? What guiding significance does the project have to the transformation and management of Chinese waterways?

Brückmann： There are a lot of Singapore experiences. I think at the very first beginning, we did masterplan and visionary concept for the center watershed together with CH2M HILL. After this, we did several workshops with the client- PUB & NParks and the Road construction department. I think these have been key elements for breaking the traditional design concept. This is to do again with the education, so when we have a workshop, we educate people and bring them on the same page, give the vision we can change the traditional design concept. The key for this was that we want to do natural design and the nature nothing is separated. So the traditional design concept is something that has to do with the separation, and the responsibilities are very clear separated in different areas. The new projects that we mixed up are more complicated for the need of collaboration. The real design is convincing now, even for the different parties. At the beginning, there was a big resistance to work together, but in the end, they are accepted, they could also see the great achievements from the integrated planning.
　　The Bishan Park is a project constructed for the entire center watershed where the Kallang River is the main river and there are a lot of small rivers in the upstream where the rivers are mainly covered or not to be seen, or even they have concrete banks. In the process of the project, I mean this is the task of landscape architects and designers to make this in a more natural way and show some experiences how to do it for drainage construction in a natural way even in the urban fabric.
　　The functionality of the sponge city is not directly to be seen in the Bishan Park. During the storm season, it functions as a big retention area. I mean normally when you talk about sponge city, you will think more essential elements. The Bishan Park is somehow a big catchment basin for the big catchment. You can see how the design works during storm events. In this project, you can see we provide much more water retention space than it was before. Before there had not the function for fast convenience to the sea, we reduce the speed of the flow and give more space to the water. In the dry season, the continuous flow is the landscape combined the park, most of the river. It is all accessible, and the flow is very shallow, people can go to the water and go away from the water. To give more safety during storm events, there are a lot of flood forecasts systems where we have alarm lights, alarm tone. People are aware that the flood will come. We experienced the flooding that it is not as fast as before in that the park could slow the storm and function as drainage system.
　　I think it is a good masterpiece and experience to show that in urban environment, it is possible to have more natural rivers and give people exercises, make river usable.

景观中国：作为设计公司，戴水道如何参与到生态公共政策的制定当中，从专业人士的角度发出声音？

布吕克曼： 这和我们的项目有关。因为戴水道公司所做的大部分项目是示范类项目，我们一直在研究应在政策中制定什么，以及怎样改变政策让它们适用于项目方案中。政策的制定需要与实践相结合，而我们也有一些来自世界各地的实践经验，一些已完成项目可以来引导大家思考这些公共政策是否真正具有指导意义，而实施后的成果能帮助我们更好的改进政策。除了政策本身之外，我们还需要考虑甲方，要为新政策能够更专业的执行创立一些导则。对于进行中的项目，我们可以直接在项目中应用新政策并观察实施的效果。这就是我们制定政策，以及如何根据需求随时改进政策的过程。

LAC：As a design company, how does Atelier Dreiseitl take part in the process of ecological public policy making from the professionals' position?

Brückmann： This is also related to our projects. Because most projects of Atelier Dreseitl are pilot projects, we have been studying what the policy needs and what we have to change the policy to make it possible and accepted by other projects and design solutions. We have not just policies, but also the clients, so we have to develop guidelines for more professional implementation of the new policy. We have some realized experiences from all over the world. If there is a running project, we can work directly with the new policy and look the project implementation. This is the process of policy making that we make projects and try to bring the needs of the projects to change the policy.